3.3 H6 with 230hp vs 3.0 H6 with 250hp?

YES SWAYBARS, PLEASE.


25mm front

22mm rear



I have an existing source for SVX big brake kits in the $1300 range... very large 4 pot fronts, 320mm rotor. I haven't seen any real interest on here, but if it exists I can source them very rapidly.

[Subafreak]

Originally posted by Porter
YES SWAYBARS, PLEASE.


25mm front

22mm rear



I have an existing source for SVX big brake kits in the $1300 range... very large 4 pot fronts, 320mm rotor. I haven't seen any real interest on here, but if it exists I can source them very rapidly.

WHAT? Lack of interest I havn't seen any posts about it? DETAILS.

[Subafreak]

Originally posted by Michael Blue



I own TRiAD Motorsports, in Morton, IL.
Basically, I started selling aftermarket performance parts for sport compacts in 1994, and have since expanded to developing my own parts (adjustable tubular control arms, upper camber plates, Moton remote-reservoir multi-adjustable dampening systems, Alcon, Brembo or Wilwood big-brake packages, swaybars, stressbars, intake, exhaust, etc), in addition to carrying many street and track performance and safety parts (most comapnies in Sport Compact Car and Grassroots Magazines), and finally I also offer location, certification, modification and assisted purchasing for specialty and exotic cars, including import of non-US cars.


This is still a small operation, and unfortunately is not yet my full time gig, but as I make some money I reinvest it, and it does continue to grow. Eventually having a full facility with staff is the goal.

Right now I'm neck-deep in the MR2 SC project, and it leaves little time for anything else...it's also sucking all the funds we have to keep the process rolling. But, as mentioned, these kits can go for around $3,500ea, so once it's available, if it sells, we'll be able to expand quickly.

Very cool. Kinda one of those "become a resourse for as many things as you can and see what one makes you the most money" deals?

Now that it's out expect custom SVX parts to be your biggest seller.

[Michael Blue]

Yeah, something like that.

We use braking system components from Brembo (rotors and calipers), AP (calipers), Alcon (calipers), Willwood (calipers) and original custom Goodridge teflon S/S braided lines, Hawk and Porterfield pads, and several brands of DOT4 and DOT5 fluids as well.

We also use suspension components from Moton (multi-adjustable remote-reservoir dampers), Koni, Tokico, KYB, H&R, Bilstein, Eiback, Ground Control, and many more.

We also can quickly produce completely custom and adjustable swaybars (even cockpit-adjustable), stressbars, tubular adjustable control arms and links, custom intake and exhaust products and systems, and more.

...and can supply custom driveshafts, rally-prep differentials and other parts, Schroth harnessbelts, all Sparco products, nearly any wheel/tire package, and a slew of smaller "universal" type products.

We do take special orders and requests, and can take on custom prototyping of many parts when needed, whether metal fab, carbon, fiberglass, carbon/kevlar weave, etc...

So, there you go...it's out of the bag.

---

Porter, One question on the swaybar sizes; where did you arrive at your sizes, and are there other sizes you would be open to? I am planning on developing and testing several sizes and adjustments on the SVX this season, and any work you've already done in this area would save time.
Also, what are the specs on your braking system? How has it tested for you, well?



Thanks!

[Subafreak]

HELLO PAL!

Sizing is based on interpolation (including vehicle weight and distribution) from what has worked VERY well for me over years of suspension setups on various Subarus.

The SVX has exactly the same suspension design and therefore the same handling characteristics as every other Subaru. It also shares the same weaknesses.

Bias between the front and rear bars is really a preference issue, but the front bar should always be larger than (or at least equal to) the rear bar.

Best results on road and track with the Subarus I have tuned have been gained through very aggressive front bar sizing, and moderate rear bar to complement.

I will go into very specific detail if you would like, preferably offline.


I have a customer turning 1:40 lap times on Road Atlanta in an STi with no power modifications whatsoever, and stock tires. He routinely embarasses Vipers and other exotics there, primarily due to his insane cornering speeds.


Oh, and I'll get some info on the brake setup for you guys. It's from TWR. I can also get Stoptech to cut custom sets of their kit for us, I've discussed it with them on several occasions.

[Michael Blue]

The swaybar sizing question is a big one. I race with people who subscribe to the big front bar theory as well, and we both consistently run quicker times in each other's cars than we do in our own (always a crowd pleaser), so there's no clear end to our difference in theories.
I have always used a larger (adjustable) rear bar, to offset understeer and help induce rotation on tighter corners, but this has been in FWD cars only. This is why your opinion is important to me, you have been using your theory on AWD cars, and I believe these will handle more closely to the FWD cars than RWD cars, with the AWD's front bias in our cars, but they will certainly still be quite different than FWD cars.
As quickly and inexpensively as a bar can be fabricated, I think I'm going to make front and rear bars in 22, 24, 26 and 28mm for both the front and rear, make them all at least 2-point adjustable, and see what different combinations do.

[GreenMarine]

That'd be cool if you could make swaybars... I'd be interested in that I think

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by Michael Blue

...

As quickly and inexpensively as a bar can be fabricated, I think I'm going to make front and rear bars in 22, 24, 26 and 28mm for both the front and rear, make them all at least 2-point adjustable, and see what different combinations do.

The stock bars have a rate of about 80 lbs/in (one arm twisting, and one arm held stationary) both in the front and rear. A 28 mm dia bar in the front will raise the sway bar rate to about 470 lbs/in. Compared to the stock spring rate of 140 lbs/in, that's pretty huge. Even a 22 mm dia bar will give a rate of 180 lbs/in in the front. I guess you're planning to use these bars with some Konis and stiffer springs? Even with the Konis, do you need to be concerned about the spring/bar combo being more than the Konis can handle?

[GreenMarine]

That's cool... I like stiff body's... (cars that is ).... If any of you were thinking otherwise then shame on you!!!

[oab_au]

Originally posted by mbtoloczko


The stock bars have a rate of about 80 lbs/in (one arm twisting, and one arm held stationary) both in the front and rear. A 28 mm dia bar in the front will raise the sway bar rate to about 470 lbs/in. Compared to the stock spring rate of 140 lbs/in, that's pretty huge. Even a 22 mm dia bar will give a rate of 180 lbs/in in the front. I guess you're planning to use these bars with some Konis and stiffer springs? Even with the Konis, do you need to be concerned about the spring/bar combo being more than the Konis can handle?

I agree, you can have too strong a bar. You got to look at what is going to hold the other end of the bar. The other end is not held still, it is connected to the inside spring. As the outside wheels spring is compressed, in a corner, the bar will compress the inside spring to the to the torsional strength of the bar. If the bar rate to spring rate is too high, you will only reduce the traction of the inside wheel, causing it to spin. This results in a loss of front drive.

I don't think i have to relate what happens to the front diff if one front wheel is allowed to spin. The AWD will sense the difference and tighten the Transfer clutch, but this will not stop the wheel off the ground from spinning. It will stop when it suddenly gains traction with a shock to the gears.

In deciding the size of a anti-roll bar, you start by working out, how much of the inside spring rate, you want to add to the outside spring, to prevent that side from compressing too much, to cause the body to roll. This then decides how much torsional stiffness the bar should have.

Don't just go for " the bigger the number the better ".

Harvey.

[Michael Blue]

I doubt I would ever offer a front bar larger than 22mm, especially given my personal preference for a stock front bar with a larger adjustable rear (on FWD cars), but I wanted to give others the benefit of the doubt, since they may know something I don't. The sizes I mentioned would be for testing only, and a 22/28 3-way would likely be what I would eventually offer.

Thanks!

I have run front sway bars ranging from 20mm to 30mm in diameter on various suspension setups on a variety of Subarus.


Subaru chassis have a tendency to try to pick up the inside front wheel (much like a BMW) on corner exit under power. This is why they understeer horribly whenever throttle is applied vigorously when cornering with the weight transferred.

A larger front bar helps keep both wheels on the ground by limiting the amount of roll across the body in the front, and helping to limit camber change during compression on the outside, which can be quite dramatic depending on the travel characteristic of the spring/strut combo being used.


I have seen excellent results in the 22-24mm range in the WRX when used with mild suspension modifications. I have also seen too large a bar cause skipping issues when the strut cannot control the added springrate of the bar during torsion.

I recommend about a 3mm bias front to rear (larger in the front) for almost any street application on a Subaru, and closer or equal bias on race systems at higher bar rates.


The finest handling Subaru I have ever driven was a 2000 Impreza 2.5RS with 25mm front bar, 24mm rear bar, JIC FLT-A2 coilovers @ 7kg/mm front springrate and 5kg/mm rear springrate. The vehicle was lightened to about 2500lbs, and cornered on DOT legal tires (Falken Azenis Sport) at rates approaching 1.15G laterally.

As for heavier, more powerful Subarus, the "magic bullet" for the STis in A-Stock class autocross competition is custom valved Koni inserts and a 27mm front sway bar, with no other changes.



Based on some math I ran a few months back, the SVX should do very well with a 24mm or 25mm front bar and 22mm rear on the street, especially when paired with Koni struts. I would think that either the GC kit or Mychailo's springs paired with Koni inserts, and bars in that sizing would make an incredible handling SVX. A more conservative approach (not necessarily a bad thing) would lead to 22mm front and 19 or 20mm rear.

By the way, I have a custom setup on the way for our STi project vehicle...


JIC FLT-A2 Race Spec Coilovers @ 12kg/mm front, 10kg/mm rear springrate, custom valved to support the springs and control a 27mm front sway bar and a 24-28mm rear adjustable bar.

Those springrates convert over into something approaching 700lb/in in the front.

I'll keep you posted on the results.

[Michael Blue]

Well, I'm back to experimenting with multiple sizes.

Porter, how is it you can use a large front bar like that and not induce more understeer? The combined springrate on the front must be astounding, and with absolutely no give like that, all I've ever gotten is push. Same goes for the FWD cars I mentioned earlier.

Oh well...this is what testing id for.