SMALL single turbo project, thoughts welcome! - Page 4

dannal1113 · #46 11-10-2010, 08:21 AM

Anyone thought of running a VGT turbo? Single turbo with minimal lag and a steady boost even into higher RPMs. Sounds too good to be true but I'd be interested to see how well it would work.
Wiki link here.

ZephTheChef · #47 11-10-2010, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LetItSnow

The illusion with a lot of $500 jobs is that they include a lot of "resident" parts, heavy low price hunting or close-enough quality standards and a pile of DIY skill.

All - Horses take money, yes. Guidance has been offered and accepted or declined. Sit back and see what happens... You don't have much for other options.

Z - when you're done, if your build is any shade of effective and safe (all the skeptics rolled their eyes here), please do throw a number out there on how much you'd have spent if you had no materials to start with?

You're the man. Thanks for being on the same page I am.

I did actually go through and add up costs of fab parts and everything, to get an idea of where I'd be at to replicate this, if I were to build kits or something in the future. I think it could be done for around $1200-1300, with a bit of spare material for screw-ups. If I were to make kits, I'd say that markup would probably need to be 1.5x to make it worth my time, so based on those figures, $1800-2000. That includes everything. My fuel setup would run about $300-500 on top of that, depending on how far you want to go with it.

However, that pricing is for a budget-minded kit. We're talking china-bay 16G turbo, aluminized steel exhaust piping, secondhand DSM intercooler, sandwich plate for the oil feed and oil cooler lines, etc. My philosophy on performance mods is just that...performance. Function. It doesn't have to be beautiful, and it doesn't have to be designed to squeeze 100% of the power you could possibly get out of the setup. I've found this works almost as well designed on a budget as it does spending 3x as much...the HP difference is minimal.

This is a low-budget build, but in my opinion it will be done as "right" as is reasonable. Sure, I could use a better quality turbo, sure, I could run an external wastegate, sure I could spend $2,000 on a standalone engine management computer, I could have shiny intercooler piping, and shiny exhaust piping...but what do all those things add to my horsepower at the end of the day? Not much. Maybe 20hp...but when we're talking about a 130-150hp increase anyway, that's small beans to double or triple your budget for. If you want that extra power there are cheaper, more effective ways of getting it.

My figures probably still sound dirt cheap...that's because they are. There's not much materials cost in this build the way I'm going about it, just a lot of fab-time...and after I've gotten it all prototyped, that cost to replicate it might even go because I'd only be buying exactly what I needed, no more.

Myxalplyx · #48 11-10-2010, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnybeas

I don't like half assing things. If you're going to turbo a SVX do it right or don't do it at all...

I like half-assed things. Even model chicks! Do-it Zep! DO IT!!!!!

Hell, I'd pay you to half ass my XT6 if I was near you. All I do is work and nothing else anyways. For some reason, I bet it works and blows people away.

And your VR4?!?

I love those! Use to love watching Nate Pharr (Sp?) race his purple one at the dragstrip back in the late 90's. Showing my age now....

ZephTheChef · #49 11-10-2010, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myxalplyx

I like half-assed things. Even model chicks! Do-it Zep! DO IT!!!!!

Hell, I'd pay you to half ass my XT6 if I was near you. All I do is work and nothing else anyways. For some reason, I bet it works and blows people away.

And your VR4?!?

I love those! Use to love watching Nate Pharr (Sp?) race his purple one at the dragstrip back in the late 90's. Showing my age now....

Lolz. I'm always amused by people complaining when the price of a turbo kit is $5,000 and at the same time, also hating on anyone that tries to do it cheaper. I have high hopes for this setup...if all goes well, I may start some actual exhaust fab next week sometime.

I hear ya about working all the time...I've been putting in 60 hours a week and also trying to go to the gym daily and find time to work on all the projects. It's hectic to say the least. Fortunately, I work at a family business, so by day I'm working on cars getting them ready for sale on the car lot, and come closing time I don't have to go anywhere...I can just pull my car into the shop and work as late as I want. It's nice having that.

Fuel stuff finished up tonight, pics tomorrow if I have time. I replaced the missing camera today with the company credit card, since they'd been using mine to upload cars to the website and needed one anyway.

I can't say I recognized the name so I

d it, and I believe you're referring to Nate Pharr of Galant VR-4 fame. I'm guilty of being addicted to Mitsu's other VR-4, the 3000GT. Similar platforms though, both a lot of fun.

ZephTheChef · #50 11-11-2010, 01:37 PM

Got some goodies ordered today. I should have everything I need to get this rolling apart from the intercooler piping, and oil lines (which I'll be waiting on to see what kind of lengths I need). Still need to buy a turbo too...but that's not a requirement to get it all fabbed up (since I have junkers laying around), so it'll probably be the last thing I do.

Fuel stuff is roughed-in. Gonna take pics if I have a chance this evening.

ZephTheChef · #51 11-12-2010, 05:43 PM

I've kind of had the rainy day blues last couple days. Got the injectors all cleaned and will be flow testing them starting shortly. I've got 22 of them to pick from, so I've got them numbered and will be recording the flow numbers, and will pick the 6 that are closest matched. I suspect they'll all be within 1-2%...as injectors usually are after I'm done reconditioning them...so I should be able to find 6 out of the 22 that flow exactly the same. When I get that done I'll get the pictures of the fuel stuff up. Maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow...but soon for sure.

svxfiles · #52 11-12-2010, 06:42 PM

" Showing my age now...."

Sonny you are hardly old enough for long pants!

sd2649 · #53 11-15-2010, 11:05 PM

Pics!

10char

ZephTheChef · #54 11-16-2010, 03:35 AM

Ok, you win. Uploading some now, so I'll post them up here in 10 minutes or so. Note: this is not finished by any means, but it'll give you guys an idea of where I'm going with the fuel stuff. These won't be in any particular order, so I'll do most of the narrating in advance of posting them so that hopefully everything makes sense.

ZephTheChef · #55 11-16-2010, 04:17 AM

Ok, so here we go...the unveiling of the top-secret fuel setup! I wasn't about to pay $600+ for a set of higher-flow injectors, especially given the well-documented problems that people have had over the years running ethanol blends with side-feed injectors. So....what I did was make some top feed fuel rails.

These rails will accommodate a TON of different injectors, and by leaving the stock fuel rails in place, the injectors seal up very nicely with just a couple of #12 orings around the bottom. I opted for high-impedance 460cc RX-7 injectors. These will not require resistors, and are very cheap and widely available. By shopping around, I paid an average of about $20 per injector...so we're talking $120 for the injector upgrade. Of course, you've got to wire in new pigtails for them, but they can be found for anywhere from $1-8 depending on whether or not you want the fancy quick-release or not.

As I mentioned before, I'm planning on running E85. I'll be running an inline walbro fuel pump, in a to-be-determined location...then through both fuel rails, to an adjustable pressure regulator, then the return line. With the second pump in series, I'll have all the flexibility I want fuel-pressure wise. Able to run anywhere from 30ish to 90+psi base pressure if I feel like. That gives me the ability to effectively adjust my injector flow range from approximately 360cc/min (266 gasoline-equivalent) all the way up to 620cc/min (450cc gasoline-equivalent), with no additional fuel management. The addition of ROM editing capability is just icing on the cake.

I flowed these injectors at around 430 on average, so at 32psi base pressure, and E85, I'll be pretty close to zeroed out as far as fuel correction goes. That'll have to do until I get my adapter board from LAN...not that it's going anywhere but in and out of the shop until I get the exhaust bit done.

PICS:

ZephTheChef · #56 11-16-2010, 04:18 AM

ZephTheChef · #57 11-16-2010, 04:34 AM

Also, if anyone is interested in top feed fuel rails, I'd be happy to make anyone that's interested a pair...I've got the damn $140 drill bit, might as well put it to use. Advantages obviously being that your injector upgrade options become virtually limitless...and cheap! Brand new top-feed injectors can be had for $300-350 per set of 6, in any size you can imagine. You can round up a used set for under $100 in smaller sizes, $150-200 in the more popular sizes. It took me about 15 minutes to solder in the new pigtails.

The only fitment issue is the line coming off the A/C compressor. It's a tight fit. I'm still thinking out how I want to run the lines, so I'll post pictures when the fuel pump gets here and I'm able to get it all run.

Pricing would be $175 shipped to the lower 48. That would include the 5/16" barb fittings. -6AN fittings available for additional $20. Polished for an extra $40. If that sounds like a lot, consider that the one-step drill bit for the injector ports cost me $140.

sd2649 · #58 11-16-2010, 10:07 AM

So, you will be able to tune these with the stock ecu easily? The advantage to e85 would be the octane rating? That is a very slick setup, I have always loathed the limitation imposed by the fuel injectors...

ZephTheChef · #59 11-16-2010, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sd2649

So, you will be able to tune these with the stock ecu easily? The advantage to e85 would be the octane rating? That is a very slick setup, I have always loathed the limitation imposed by the fuel injectors...

Yes. I've run E85 on several other cars now with no fuel tuning other than properly oversized injectors, and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator for fine tuning. The idea is pretty simple really, E-85 takes 30-35% more flow than gasoline to get the same AFRs, so based on that I calculate the flow I need and through a combination of injector sizing and base fuel pressure I can get it dialed in to run more or less like stock. The oxygen content of E85 is so high that you'll typically see 5-10% power increase from that alone and also be able to run a LOT more timing advance.

E85 has an octane in the neighborhood of 105, but due to the fact that you run it so much richer, it typically runs cooler at best-power mixtures so it acts more like 115+. It's damn near impossible to get detonation with E85, even with stupid timing advance and boost levels. Also, best power is around 12.1:1 AFR and there's nothing to be gained by leaning it out so all around it's a very safe fuel to tune on. $2.20 a gallon for some of the best race gas you'll ever use is hard to beat

I'm going to be pretty busy at work for the next few days, but hopefully I'll be ready to start it on E85 by the end of the week. If my other cars are any indication, it should run like a champ.

httrdd · #60 11-16-2010, 04:34 PM

Coming along well!