The Situation in the Middle East

[subi-crosser]

Originally Posted by Noir

jerry, it sounds like your grandpappy was a saint to those lovable 'coloured' people. hats off to your family for protecting them from the brutal and unforgiving real world. if the people today had as much decency as your forefathers, we wouldn't see the problems that exist today!

A) They were on the farm when the family bought it,

B) they CHOSE not to leave

C ) I have never owned anyone, and the last one died 40 years before I was BORN!!!

D) I rode to Florida in the back seat of a 60 chevy, and remember the fat, tee shirt clad goons with tobaco spittle dribbeling down the front of them, setting on their lard ashes, holding up the cardboard signs when a car with a 'Black" family wanted gas, Telling them in 2 words, not to bother stopping! I SAW the water fountains with different signs on them, I saw the 'WHOLE thing unfold", and I watched it DIE!

E) A small black girl was my youngest daughters friend, and her mom thought more about her 'head' than if the kid got to school, had food, had shelter, etc.. She came to stay with us, and we bought all her school supplies, clothes, food etc, and she stayed with us for 6 months. She went back to stay with her mom, and was 'evicted' again, losing all the school stuff we had bought. She came back and we bought it all AGAIN! and kept her till her mom straightened out. Over all, she lived here for the better part of 5 years! We never recieved any help, didn't ask for help, and treated her like our own child!
So I guess I might not be a 'BIGGOT' after all!

[subi-crosser]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Ok guys enough.....









































HIJACKING MY THREAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!















Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Just Kidding

Sorry, It might have been something I said!!.............Well, at least you might be treated to a LITTLE of the discussions on the black-white thing, but it seems that the focus had been on bashing organized religon, as a whole, and limited personal responsibility, because " God or the devil" made me do it!!! IT AIN'T my fault" I'm a victem of my environment,and I'de rather curse the darkness than light a single match-ism. attitude!!! Hide your head,, 'TRUTH' is coming!!!! EEEEKKK!!!!

[subi-crosser]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

We need a "My political opinion is better than yours" section. I'm getting lost on which one I'm posting to.

As I previously stated on a different forum, I have been employed in the 'compassion' industry for 18 years, with the last 17 years as a 'driver'...
I have had many opportunities to talk with people that have had 'experiences' that might be considered ( out of body). Every person that has 'shared' this 'experience' with me RE-AFFIRMS the experience that I had , 20 years ago... and I would really have a hard time convincing myself that these things were 'coincidence', since NONE of the people telling me these stories had ever MET, and told the same stories, and the one that I had experienced was VERY close to the ones that they had shared!!!!

Then, in the last year of my fathers life, he told me a story about an experience he had, and how it convinced him that there is 'MORE' when you die! It came 20 years after I had mine!!

You can chose to believe or not, you can chose to respond or not, you can chose to ignore or not... But if you are a 'betting person', and you bet on the fact that you don't believe in an after-life, and you are WRONG, you get to burn forever, If you believe, and are wrong, and you just 'go away' and there is NO after-life....Who loses more????????????

Just curious........... Jerry

[Electrophil]

[QUOTE=subi-crosser]

D) I rode to Florida in the back seat of a 60 chevy, and remember the fat, tee shirt clad goons with tobaco spittle dribbeling down the front of them, setting on their lard ashes, holding up the cardboard signs when a car with a 'Black" family wanted gas, Telling them in 2 words, not to bother stopping! I SAW the water fountains with different signs on them, I saw the 'WHOLE thing unfold", and I watched it DIE!
QUOTE]

If that doesn't have the makings of a hit blues song, then blues doesn't exist.

I rode to Florida!
ta daaaaa ta da!

In a 60's chevrolet!
ta daaaa ta da!

All the fat lard-ashed goons!
ta daaaaa ta da!

Tabaccar on their shirts!
ta daaaa ta da!

Come on! Sing along! You know the words!!

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by subi-crosser

As I previously stated on a different forum, I have been employed in the 'compassion' industry for 18 years, with the last 17 years as a 'driver'...
I have had many opportunities to talk with people that have had 'experiences' that might be considered ( out of body). Every person that has 'shared' this 'experience' with me RE-AFFIRMS the experience that I had , 20 years ago... and I would really have a hard time convincing myself that these things were 'coincidence', since NONE of the people telling me these stories had ever MET, and told the same stories, and the one that I had experienced was VERY close to the ones that they had shared!!!!

Then, in the last year of my fathers life, he told me a story about an experience he had, and how it convinced him that there is 'MORE' when you die! It came 20 years after I had mine!!

You can chose to believe or not, you can chose to respond or not, you can chose to ignore or not... But if you are a 'betting person', and you bet on the fact that you don't believe in an after-life, and you are WRONG, you get to burn forever, If you believe, and are wrong, and you just 'go away' and there is NO after-life....Who loses more????????????

Just curious........... Jerry

Ehhhh.... I like you too much to ignore you.

I am agnostic. I'm not going to change. I don't believe in having an imaginary friend. I didn't even have one when I was a kid.

Now unless someone is printing up souls, none of the teachings make sense to me.

It's a book. Hopsch-kopsched haphazardly together with the scriptures chosen from hundreds available by a group of 4 or 5 guys. It was slamed together 300 years after a very good man died because he thought people should be nice to each other. This man was born out of wedlock during a period when stoning to death was the penalty for such a "crime"..... unless that "out of wedlock" birth happened to be of miraculous conception. Good thing, cause according to custom, her fiance Joseph would have had to cast the first stone. He sure as heck didn't want to do that.

Is that offensive to some? Yes... I appologize.
Is it all factual? Yes.... Very much so.

I appreciate your position, and wouldn't dream of trying to change it. You have membership in one of the largest religions in the world.

But I ain't gonna base my entire life..... on a book. And if this entity exists, I don't think he will base his entire decision on my "fate" over this. I don't think the entity would be that shallow. We don't even know if he agrees with it, he didn't write it.

[Electrophil]

After thought... Revelations... That part where we all end up burning. A guy named ??John??? wrote it? Seven letters written to seven churches? Who was this John? It's not the same one from earlier in the book.

Who is he? And where did he get his information that I was going to burn in hell for not following a book....... that hasn't even been slammed together yet, and won't be for another few centuries?

[Electrophil]

I'm on a roll.....

Subject: Abortion.

As stated above...

During the period that God caused the miraculous conception of Jesus, the penalty for women who became pregnant out of wedlock was to be stoned to death by the community. To further enhance the penalty, if she was going through one of her 3 stages toward marraige, her fiance would have to cast the first stone. This enhanced the penalty for obvious reasons... It was probably his child, and he wouldn't want to do it...... further casting a positive light on practicing chastity prior to formal marraige. (Unless it was an arranged marraige, and he didn't like her.)

Now this stoning killed the mother...... which of course killed her unborn child.

Tell me........ Couldn't a person consider this the first "formal medical procedure" practiced to perform abortions?

Now since stonings were a common occurrence, sometimes several a week for various crimes..... including out of wedlock pregnancies......and everyone was required to join in. hmmmmm...And abortion is suppose to be a sin in the eyes of God..... hmmmmmm
That would mean there may be a bunch of our original scripture writers who are going to hell themselves... wow!

[Electrophil]

Huhh!! Did I kill SilverSpear's hijacked thread?

Hmm..... here's a thought to throw out there:

Religion and spiritual beliefs have nothing to do with the situation in the Middle East. It is also a false way of defining the political struggle in the USA. We are witnessing classical power struggles, where the various groups need some sort of identifying and separating characteristics in order to define "us" vs. "them".

From a sociological standpoint, we humans like to get together in groups. The Hermits of the world are exceptions. We are pack animals. We like to think of ourselves as having evolved beyond base animal instinct, yet in many ways old habits die hard.

The animal kingdom has simple rules for deciding who will be the leader of the pack. Usually it is the strongest who can attain and maintain leadership through combat - either real fights to the death, or symbolic where the loser is allowed to live, but is often thrown out of the group.

Taken in this context of a classical power struggle, you can strip out all the religious ideology and substitute a far simpler overlay. Superiority is the name of the game, and getting more influence through greater control and bigger pack numbers is the goal.

The simple pack architecture, however, breaks down as the numbers of the pack increase beyond what one individal can easily control. In the animal kingdom there are natural limits to how large each pack can become. Most of these natural limiting factors no longer apply to humanity, yet the pack still ends up being reduced though other means. In the most ideal situations, rival leaders split off from the main pack to create their own groups, thus taking away the stress of internal dissent and in essence purifying the original group. In less ideal situations, the human pack attempts to eliminate internal dissent through other means, such as killing objectors, or exiling them individually with the hope that they won't survive, or isolating them from the pack through imprisonment. Jail isn't just a way of punishment, it is also a way of keeping the rival from being able to form a new sub-group that might in time split off and weaken the pack's numbers. Remember that the human leaders' goal is to maintain and increase the number of followers. Allowing a group to split off is perceived by most as a loss of control and power.

Human leaders rarely face actual combat to maintain their positions. In democracies, we "fight" using ballots. In dictatorships, challengers are often disposed of through assassination or simply arrested and killed to become an example to others.

I would argue that very few of the most powerful men involved in the various current global struggles are truly spiritual in nature. Religion is just another tool of control for these power seekers. Organized religion provides for a wonderful structure to control the masses.

I am NOT saying that belief and spirituality is bad. But man-made organizations are easily corrupted. Often the original ideals are lost as people vie for supremacy within the group. Rarely does a group ruled through consensus survive for any longer period of time. Strong individuals inevitably rise up and attempt to take control. If these rivals cannot take over, and feel unable or are unwilling to begin a new group alongside the old, then the next simplest method is to destroy the group and then create a new one more to their liking.

If humanity could truly live and let live, then all the various groups could live side-by-side peacefully. Unfortunately, we not only want to do as we wish, but often feel the need to impose our values on others. This imposition, this need to control the behaviour of others is the true cause of all conflict.

You're either with us, or against us. Where have I been hearing that lately?

[Electrophil]

[QUOTE=Bipa]

I would argue that very few of the most powerful men involed in the various current global struggles are truly spiritual in nature. Religion is just another tool of control for these power seekers. Organized religion provides for a wonderful structure to control the masses.

QUOTE]

Yep! That's right. What she said!! 3 pointer.

[SilverSpear]

I just read the first 5 paragraphs in Bipa's statement and then stopped. Bipa with all do respect to you as a very knowledgeable person, you are totally wrong. It seems you also read a lot in the media, which got you off track concerning those things. In the Middle East, it is true there is a fight over power (Israel and Palestine) but not all the countries here are fighting towards control. There is also dictatorships but not all are dictatorships. We are not talking about the middle east in particular here, rather we are talking Middle East Vs the world.

The Muslims "got invaded" by foreigners. They are a very tight community, for example they sympathise with muslims of Indonesia, if a muslim gets injured there from an American, riots break loose in the ME against USA. When USA helped the Israelis against the "Muslims", USA became the enemy.

I was also really insulted by the fact that you compared the Arabs by animals. I will keep my part of the comment very professional and objective not to go to other "unwanted" issues... The only two countries that witnessed the overthrown of their leader were the "Baath Party" countries, for example Syria and Iraq, that was near 40 years ago. Iraq changed now, but wars are still going on, Syria is having its hands chopped.

In Lebanon, we truly had a civil war, caused by religion first! The Christians wanted to follow the USA, the Muslims wanted to follow Egypt (Jamal Abdel Nasser). The Christian leader and the Druze leader were once best friends, became worst enemies! It has been all the time because of religion and control was the result of the religious struggle.

Now we are becoming like a true "Unreligious" country. All our leaders are sitting on one table and discuss the interest of the country as the whole rather than the interest of the community.

Oh, Danny.... you've missed pretty much everything that I tried to say!

First off, I'm not comparing Arabs to animals... I am comparing all "homo sapiens" to animals! That means that I am using examples from the animal kingdom as a basis for explaining the sociological processes currently underway. I never even used the word "Arab" or "Muslim" or "Christian" or any other sort of word defining a particular race or religion. So if you are offended, then so should everyone else on this board.

Secondly, you write about countries fighting for control. I actually refrained from using words like "country" or "state" or even "nation" but instead only talked about groups. Arabs can be loosely divided into Muslim and non-Muslim. But Muslims can then in turn be divided into smaller groups, based either on religion or tribe or any other thing that would bring people together into a group. These groups all come into conflict at times. And there is always some conflict within the groups themselves.

To simply assume that all Arabs, or even all Muslims, speak with a single voice is completely unrealistic.

The Muslim community is just as divided as the Christian, or any other. To make it easier, let's think of it as a family. When threatened by an outside force, the "family" can quickly set aside all differences in order to unite and face the common foe. Within the family, however, the various feuds can be picked up right afterwards and continued as if there were no interruption.

We are not talking about the middle east in particular here, rather we are talking Middle East Vs the world.

I'm NOT talking about the Middle East in particular, nor am I specifically talking about Middle East vs. the World. What I have written about group dynamics can be equally applied to any group anywhere in the world. I was not being specific, but commenting on basic human nature which remains the same regardless of race, creed, sex, culture, orientation, financial status etc etc etc. If you eat and drink, you gotta go to the bathroom eventually. That bathroom might be a hole in the woods or an outhouse or a gold-plated luxurious room, but that doesn't change the person's basic need to excrete.

I would be extremely interested in hearing those other "unwanted issues". If you are not comfortable in posting them publicly, then please feel free to sent me a PM. I even promise to remain objective and will not get angry or upset if you get a bit emotional, so feel free to let loose in private.

Now we are becoming like a true "Unreligious" country. All our leaders are sitting on one table and discuss the interest of the country as the whole rather than the interest of the community.

This sentence alone confirms that you haven't understood any of my writing, or else interpreted it in a much too narrow fashion. The "country" can be considered a group, as can all the various communities within the country. Yet a group is not necessarily limited by political borders, and thus can span several different countries. Gosh, there's tons of potential for conflict just there. And I still haven't limited myself to just the Middle East, since the same type of situation exists in Europe and other places.

So please re-read my post, but this time don't think of if as being a specific description of Arabs. Arabs are a group contained with a larger group called Homo Sapiens. According to modern scientific classification, Homo Sapiens belong to the Animal Kingdom, in the Dominion called Eukaryota. We certainly aren't members of the Plant, Algae or Funghi Kingdoms which can be easily proven by looking at cell structure and DNA. For more info, check out Wikipedia's overview of Scientific Classification at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_classification

[Noir]

Originally Posted by Bipa

Oh, Danny.... you've missed pretty much everything that I tried to say!

First off, I'm not comparing Arabs to animals... I am comparing all "homo sapiens" to animals! That means that I am using examples from the animal kingdom as a basis for explaining the sociological processes currently underway. I never even used the word "Arab" or "Muslim" or "Christian" or any other sort of word defining a particular race or religion. So if you are offended, then so should everyone else on this board.

Secondly, you write about countries fighting for control. I actually refrained from using words like "country" or "state" or even "nation" but instead only talked about groups. Arabs can be loosely divided into Muslim and non-Muslim. But Muslims can then in turn be divided into smaller groups, based either on religion or tribe or any other thing that would bring people together into a group. These groups all come into conflict at times. And there is always some conflict within the groups themselves.

To simply assume that all Arabs, or even all Muslims, speak with a single voice is completely unrealistic.

The Muslim community is just as divided as the Christian, or any other. To make it easier, let's think of it as a family. When threatened by an outside force, the "family" can quickly set aside all differences in order to unite and face the common foe. Within the family, however, the various feuds can be picked up right afterwards and continued as if there were no interruption.


I'm NOT talking about the Middle East in particular, nor am I specifically talking about Middle East vs. the World. What I have written about group dynamics can be equally applied to any group anywhere in the world. I was not being specific, but commenting on basic human nature which remains the same regardless of race, creed, sex, culture, orientation, financial status etc etc etc. If you eat and drink, you gotta go to the bathroom eventually. That bathroom might be a hole in the woods or an outhouse or a gold-plated luxurious room, but that doesn't change the person's basic need to excrete.

I would be extremely interested in hearing those other "unwanted issues". If you are not comfortable in posting them publicly, then please feel free to sent me a PM. I even promise to remain objective and will not get angry or upset if you get a bit emotional, so feel free to let loose in private.



This sentence alone confirms that you haven't understood any of my writing, or else interpreted it in a much too narrow fashion. The "country" can be considered a group, as can all the various communities within the country. Yet a group is not necessarily limited by political borders, and thus can span several different countries. Gosh, there's tons of potential for conflict just there. And I still haven't limited myself to just the Middle East, since the same type of situation exists in Europe and other places.

So please re-read my post, but this time don't think of if as being a specific description of Arabs. Arabs are a group contained with a larger group called Homo Sapiens. According to modern scientific classification, Homo Sapiens belong to the Animal Kingdom, in the Dominion called Eukaryota. We certainly aren't members of the Plant, Algae or Funghi Kingdoms which can be easily proven by looking at cell structure and DNA. For more info, check out Wikipedia's overview of Scientific Classification at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_classification

i ain't reeding dem posts no mo' by Beepa. mah brian canuck understund all dem werds witout cliff notes.

[Noir]

oh yeah, i'm not making fun of you Danny, i just saw all those words and was like, nope i ain't reading it. i'm still waiting for the tube edition or the atlanta journal to publish her posts in cliff notes.

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by Noir

oh yeah, i'm not making fun of you Danny, i just saw all those words and was like, nope i ain't reading it. i'm still waiting for the tube edition or the atlanta journal to publish her posts in cliff notes.

I think it's great we have all these really smart people from all over the world running around this site. Just the simple fact of Danny and Bipa being from different parts of the world with different viewpoints has actually made me a more knowledgeable person.

(But secretly, shhhh.... I'm glad neither one of them are driving over here.... I've seen pictures of both of their roadways on this site and they're lunatics!!)