Camshafts for the EG33.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by bazza

Will post up vids when I get a chance. Kept hitting the limiter with these cams, power everywhere and huge torque spread. My wife drove it back to the pits and complained that the throttle was "to responsive" ROFL.

Anyway note these regrind cams vs the piece of crap rubbish stock cams, you can see the stock cams just die and acceleration drops off. These regrinds of mine just keep accelerating all the way to the limiter I had set for today. This is G force longitudinal data log.



Also Vmax with stock cams at 14 psi was 195 kph. Vmax with my regrinds @ 7 psi was 192 kph running 100 RON and about 4 degrees less timing and rich AFR's for safety (since I ran out of E85 very early on while sorting out the brake bias) - quite amazing.

OK I take it that it is a G force run in one gear. The G force is comparable to the torque output. So if the blue is the new engine and the red the old one, we can see that there is not a lot of change, the red had more torque early in the rpms, dropping off as the rpm rises. The new blue one has less torque, but runs flat to the higher rpms.

As Bazza has no idea what the cams that he wanted, ended up like, we have to guess that they were ground on the same centers as the standard cams, if so the timing would look like this.




Blue is the inlet valve, yellow is the exhaust valve. The engine rotates clockwise.

With such a long duration the overlap works out to be 45*. This means that when the inlet opens at 20* BTDC and for the next 45* the exhaust valve is still open, So the inlet boost is blowing straight out the exhaust valve and down the.exhaust pipe. This is a waste of all the compressed air, that should have stayed in the cylinder building torque.

The other end of the inlet has the valve closing at 70* ABDC. This timing is suited to a high revving engine, that would develop peak torque at about 7000 rpm, this is too high for the rev range that you are running. Closing at 65* would be the most you would need.

As I keep saying you need as much lift as you can build into the engine. 8.75 mm is attainable with hydraulics, you missed the chance to do it.

Shorter duration and more lift would have more boost filling the cylinder, producing the torque that it should have.

Harvey.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by oab_au

OK I take it that it is a G force run in one gear. The G force is comparable to the torque output. So if the blue is the new engine and the red the old one, we can see that there is not a lot of change, the red had more torque early in the rpms, dropping off as the rpm rises. The new blue one has less torque, but runs flat to the higher rpms.

As Bazza has no idea what the cams that he wanted, ended up like, we have to guess that they were ground on the same centers as the standard cams, if so the timing would look like this.

If you read what I said, that blue line is running 100RON, 7 psi, no timing. The red one is 14 psi, E85 and timing. Yet the blue curve pulls longer and better and the Vmax was about the same. Anyway can see that RPM. Further the datalogs show the same acceleration in other parts of the track from 2750 rpm to 6800 rpm. Then there's driving the car and hitting the limiter but as I said in the other post - I could prove it beyond all doubt but due to your anger issues, you'd never get it. I'm starting to think that your signature is why you're such an angry old c*&t, get some help maybe?

However you're still trying to claim the stock cams are awesome. Mate - they're ****, time to move on from 1935 and get with the times.

Blue is the inlet valve, yellow is the exhaust valve. The engine rotates clockwise.

With such a long duration the overlap works out to be 45*. This means that when the inlet opens at 20* BTDC and for the next 45* the exhaust valve is still open, So the inlet boost is blowing straight out the exhaust valve and down the.exhaust pipe. This is a waste of all the compressed air, that should have stayed in the cylinder building torque.

The other end of the inlet has the valve closing at 70* ABDC. This timing is suited to a high revving engine, that would develop peak torque at about 7000 rpm, this is too high for the rev range that you are running. Closing at 65* would be the most you would need.

As I keep saying you need as much lift as you can build into the engine. 8.75 mm is attainable with hydraulics, you missed the chance to do it.

Shorter duration and more lift would have more boost filling the cylinder, producing the torque that it should have.

Harvey.

Simply put, you're the last person I will listen to about cams or anything else auto for that matter. Everything to date you've said and done has been wrong and a failure and you've got nothing except grey hair and a well worn keyboard. I ignored your advice with the cams, I came up with my own setup and it's worked extremely well. Think that is the moral of the story for the members - ignore Harvey if you want a cost effective and high performing setup. Listen to him and you'll go nowhere.

Also I could shoot your bull**** to pieces above because it's so full of holes it's not funny but it's not worth it. ROFL - turbo making peak torque at 7000 rpm - you're funny. Again showing how lack of any sort of clue you really have.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by oab_au

As Bazza has no idea what the cams that he wanted, ended up like, we have to guess that they were ground on the same centers as the standard cams, if so the timing would look like this.

As I keep saying you need as much lift as you can build into the engine. 8.75 mm is attainable with hydraulics, you missed the chance to do it.

Shorter duration and more lift would have more boost filling the cylinder, producing the torque that it should have.

Harvey.

I forgot to mention my mate has been dynoing his EG33/GT40R which is running twin scroll headers to the turbo. His power drops off at the EXACT same rpm as mine did with the ****ty stock cams... OMG who would've thought... well actually those with experience KNEW this from the beginning.

[SVXRide]

Careful gentlemen, the mods are going to end up sending you to your rooms

What I'm seeing is the two curves should not be seen as an apples-to-apples comparison (100RON, 7 psi, no timing (new cams) vs 14 psi, E85 and timing (stock cams) ). More variables than we have equations

I believe - and am willing to be corrected if I'm off base - that we can all agree that the EG33 likes more lift and that 8.75 mm is the upper limit with the stock springs/valves for the int and exh.

The duration and overlap of the int and exh cams appears to follow well established principles wrt building pressure vs blowing fuel out the tail pipe (?).

This leaves us with the question of what duration/overlap works best for NA and FI application. I'd like to believe that the cams I have in my EG33 are "close" for NA applications, acknowledging that they could have slightly more lift (in the tenths/hundreths of mm). I also acknowledge that dyno runs are necessary to make any quantitative conclusions here. Need to cut the hood and get the car to the tuner/dyno!!

On the FI front, we have TOMSSVX supercharged EG33 and Bazza's turbocharged EG33. I believe Tom J had his engine on a dyno before he sold the car, but I've got to dig through my files to find my spreadsheet with dyno results. Bazza has track results that we can start extrapolating engine performance. Think we're heading in the right direction here!

Last point -- Harvey! Can you run your EG33 computer simulation to determine what the effect on torque peak is of increasing intake path length in increments of 25mm? Thanks.

Bill

[icingdeath88]

Originally Posted by SVXRide

Careful gentlemen, the mods are going to end up sending you to your rooms

I'm pretty sure this is just how Australian dudes talk to one another

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by icingdeath88

I'm pretty sure this is just how Australian dudes talk to one another

Not this Australian.

Harvey.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by SVXRide

Careful gentlemen, the mods are going to end up sending you to your rooms

What I'm seeing is the two curves should not be seen as an apples-to-apples comparison (100RON, 7 psi, no timing (new cams) vs 14 psi, E85 and timing (stock cams) ). More variables than we have equations

Not really mate - I've got about 150 laps now with the EG33 / GT35R at various boost levels, various tunes and various extractor setups - all of which in a database. I've just posted what I though was very obvious and easy to understand.

The Vmax is absolutely amazing at 7 psi. I forgot I've added about 50kg of weight since last time which means power to weight even - the Vmax would be better at 7 psi (100RON) rather than the old 14 psi E85 setup. This isn't apples v apples - it's better - it's shows that these cams have huge potential and it shows I was right every step of the way thus far.

I believe - and am willing to be corrected if I'm off base - that we can all agree that the EG33 likes more lift and that 8.75 mm is the upper limit with the stock springs/valves for the int and exh.

Every Subaru boxer engine on the planet likes more lift and more duration - this is not something new - even look at a Porsche aftermarket cam catalogue - you'll see very similar things.

Now, have you tested the intake lift at 8.75mm? I'd be very careful and ensure you get it right or you'll be up for a lot of coin replacing the valves with longer ones to fill the clearance and or replacing springs and sorting out journal clearance issues.

With my chosen profile - there is no way to get more lift (7.9mm intake) without sacrificing duration etc OR needing to replace the valves ($750) to solve the clearance issue OR weld the cams ($1500) - I am on the absolute limit of what was possible with them with the masters my cam shop had.

The duration and overlap of the int and exh cams appears to follow well established principles wrt building pressure vs blowing fuel out the tail pipe (?).

This leaves us with the question of what duration/overlap works best for NA and FI application. I'd like to believe that the cams I have in my EG33 are "close" for NA applications, acknowledging that they could have slightly more lift (in the tenths/hundreths of mm). I also acknowledge that dyno runs are necessary to make any quantitative conclusions here. Need to cut the hood and get the car to the tuner/dyno!!

On the FI front, we have TOMSSVX supercharged EG33 and Bazza's turbocharged EG33. I believe Tom J had his engine on a dyno before he sold the car, but I've got to dig through my files to find my spreadsheet with dyno results. Bazza has track results that we can start extrapolating engine performance. Think we're heading in the right direction here!

Bill

You could spend years trying to find the "best" overlap and it would depend on your entire setup - there is no silver bullet. Something perfect for one track may be a compromise for another etc.

With turbo cams, it's far better to find something that works and use those ideas. The EG33 is so under-developed as opposed to it's EJ cousin and is about 10 years behind in the mods world. It's therefore far better to use the EJ concepts, catch up and THEN start innovating. EJ cam combinations have been proven 1000 times over.

My cams are simply stage 1 - they work and the engine now revs like the EJ - obvious benefit is I make more power at 7 psi than they do at 20 psi

When I get around to developing stage 2 - then I'll look at maximising lift, duration. Luckily for me a mate of mine is running those 330/320 advertised with a lot of lift and duration - so he is the guinea pig for my stage 2 setup.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by icingdeath88

I'm pretty sure this is just how Australian dudes talk to one another

I just don't deal well with people with far less experience or knowledge telling me how to do something or what I've done is wrong and I especially don't deal well with keyboard warriors or cheque book racers for that matter. Always happy to listen to all advice as only an idiot would close his eyes and ears and ignore reality.

[icingdeath88]

Originally Posted by bazza

I just don't deal well with people with far less experience or knowledge telling me how to do something or what I've done is wrong and I especially don't deal well with keyboard warriors or cheque book racers for that matter. Always happy to listen to all advice as only an idiot would close his eyes and ears and ignore reality.

I see where you're coming from, but in all seriousness, you could be a little nicer. There are only a small number of members on the forum, and, of those, a smaller number of members with the considerable knowledge both of you have. The discussion is not facilitated by getting too personal about it, and I'd hate to see either of those numbers drop because y'all couldn't play nice. You could disagree more nicely is what I'm saying.

Frankly, I'm not quite knowledgeable enough to tell whether one of you is actually right or wrong, or both right somehow, and the people who run the place probably can't tell either, and don't care. So keep it friendly, guys.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by icingdeath88

I see where you're coming from, but in all seriousness, you could be a little nicer. There are only a small number of members on the forum, and, of those, a smaller number of members with the considerable knowledge both of you have. The discussion is not facilitated by getting too personal about it, and I'd hate to see either of those numbers drop because y'all couldn't play nice. You could disagree more nicely is what I'm saying.

Frankly, I'm not quite knowledgeable enough to tell whether one of you is actually right or wrong, or both right somehow, and the people who run the place probably can't tell either, and don't care. So keep it friendly, guys.

Happy to keep it civil - getting into e-battles is my last intention, my intention is to help advance the EG33 whcih is why I am here and why Tony and I are working on these various projects.

Comments such as "As Bazza has no idea what the cams that he wanted, ended up like, we have to guess that they were ground on the same centers as the standard cams, if so the timing would look like this. " deserve the exact response they received. If Harvey wants to act like a 10 year then I will treat him like one.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/show...&postcount=106

[SVXRide]

Bazza!
Comments inserted below.
Cheers
Bill

Originally Posted by bazza

Not really mate - I've got about 150 laps now with the EG33 / GT35R at various boost levels, various tunes and various extractor setups - all of which in a database. I've just posted what I though was very obvious and easy to understand.

Is the database on your website? I'd love to add it to my chassis dyno spreadsheet. Actual data has always carried more weight with me than bench racing

The Vmax is absolutely amazing at 7 psi. I forgot I've added about 50kg of weight since last time which means power to weight even - the Vmax would be better at 7 psi (100RON) rather than the old 14 psi E85 setup. This isn't apples v apples - it's better - it's shows that these cams have huge potential and it shows I was right every step of the way thus far.

Can you provide the details for both set ups, beyond the psi and fuel aspects? Again, I'd like to add this info to my spreadsheet. Still two different fruit, with one apparently much juicier!

Every Subaru boxer engine on the planet likes more lift and more duration - this is not something new - even look at a Porsche aftermarket cam catalogue - you'll see very similar things.

Now, have you tested the intake lift at 8.75mm? I'd be very careful and ensure you get it right or you'll be up for a lot of coin replacing the valves with longer ones to fill the clearance and or replacing springs and sorting out journal clearance issues.

I'm actually running slightly less than 8.5 mm on both the intake and exhaust with no ill effects after several hundred miles and two days of autoxing. I'd have to go back into the actual measurements I made a couple of years ago that determined when we get to coil bind with the stock springs/valves/lifters. My memory wants to tell me that 8.75 mm was the static limit (i.e., coil bind without any potential pump up by the lifter). Adding in a little margin, 8.5-8.6mm is probably the upper limit.

With my chosen profile - there is no way to get more lift (7.9mm intake) without sacrificing duration etc OR needing to replace the valves ($750) to solve the clearance issue OR weld the cams ($1500) - I am on the absolute limit of what was possible with them with the masters my cam shop had.

Could use of the the SuperTech int/exh valves with slightly longer stems be the solution to gaining more lift with the duration you're running? I believe LAN was using them with single springs (vs dual stock springs) with his cam profiles (?).


You could spend years trying to find the "best" overlap and it would depend on your entire setup - there is no silver bullet. Something perfect for one track may be a compromise for another etc.

Agreed. This is why getting Tony to finish up his engine dyno is so important.

With turbo cams, it's far better to find something that works and use those ideas. The EG33 is so under-developed as opposed to it's EJ cousin and is about 10 years behind in the mods world. It's therefore far better to use the EJ concepts, catch up and THEN start innovating. EJ cam combinations have been proven 1000 times over.

Agreed.

My cams are simply stage 1 - they work and the engine now revs like the EJ - obvious benefit is I make more power at 7 psi than they do at 20 psi

And more torque!

When I get around to developing stage 2 - then I'll look at maximising lift, duration. Luckily for me a mate of mine is running those 330/320 advertised with a lot of lift and duration - so he is the guinea pig for my stage 2 setup.

['E']

Originally Posted by icingdeath88

I'm pretty sure this is just how Australian dudes talk to one another

It's actually quite polite compared to how most blokes especially mates talk to each other

[bazza]

Is the database on your website? I'd love to add it to my chassis dyno spreadsheet. Actual data has always carried more weight with me than bench racing

Can you provide the details for both set ups, beyond the psi and fuel aspects? Again, I'd like to add this info to my spreadsheet. Still two different fruit, with one apparently much juicier!

It's kinda top secret database haha. I give what I think helps people but we don't want any competitors getting ideas now do we :P

What I'll do next time out (early December) is a few 7 psi runs, 10 psi runs, 12 psi runs and if the stock clutch will handle it 14-16 psi. All down the main straight. I've set up a sector from the start to brake point and can already see some interesting things in the data logging software. It's called GPX Pro / XT Studio if you're interested. I've probably spent 10+ hours of time on it since Friday's track day researching/analysing and updating the numerous spreadsheets / databases I have. It's a very cool tool especially from a bigger picture when you can see suspension changes / engine changes / gearbox changes / aero changes all showing up.

I'm actually running slightly less than 8.5 mm on both the intake and exhaust with no ill effects after several hundred miles and two days of autoxing. I'd have to go back into the actual measurements I made a couple of years ago that determined when we get to coil bind with the stock springs/valves/lifters. My memory wants to tell me that 8.75 mm was the static limit (i.e., coil bind without any potential pump up by the lifter). Adding in a little margin, 8.5-8.6mm is probably the upper limit.

That's also exactly what Mike LAN said for the intake and why I'd be worried going over 8.5mm lift on the intake - Mike did a heap of work from what I've read. Sounds like you've got this all sorted

Could use of the the SuperTech int/exh valves with slightly longer stems be the solution to gaining more lift with the duration you're running? I believe LAN was using them with single springs (vs dual stock springs) with his cam profiles (?).

Definetely - however it's an extra cost of course... maybe $1000 bucks maybe more plus then if you replace the springs you may as well do the retainers and collets and then do the solid buckets while you're there :P That's kinda why I'm also rather happy with mine.

[SVXRide]

Bazza,

Gotcha on the TS database!

Looking forward to seeing the results of the December runs! I checked out the GPX Pro / XT Studio site. Looks good! Are you running the 4 or 8 channel version? What, exactly, are you datalogging? I'm very interested in how you've got the car wired up and what sensors you're using (yeah, it's the "test and evaluation engineer" part of me rearing its head!

-Bill

Originally Posted by bazza

It's kinda top secret database haha. I give what I think helps people but we don't want any competitors getting ideas now do we :P

What I'll do next time out (early December) is a few 7 psi runs, 10 psi runs, 12 psi runs and if the stock clutch will handle it 14-16 psi. All down the main straight. I've set up a sector from the start to brake point and can already see some interesting things in the data logging software. It's called GPX Pro / XT Studio if you're interested. I've probably spent 10+ hours of time on it since Friday's track day researching/analysing and updating the numerous spreadsheets / databases I have. It's a very cool tool especially from a bigger picture when you can see suspension changes / engine changes / gearbox changes / aero changes all showing up.



That's also exactly what Mike LAN said for the intake and why I'd be worried going over 8.5mm lift on the intake - Mike did a heap of work from what I've read. Sounds like you've got this all sorted



Definetely - however it's an extra cost of course... maybe $1000 bucks maybe more plus then if you replace the springs you may as well do the retainers and collets and then do the solid buckets while you're there :P That's kinda why I'm also rather happy with mine.

[icingdeath88]

The cams that I have, I know nothing about except what's in my signature:

244,8.1mm/256,9.1mm intake/exhaust

Do you guys think they will be an ok match for the turbo engine? The choices are either these or the stock cams, another set of cams are almost definitely not going to be in the budget.