Car Wont start...... more inside

[nsm484]

Well... after all the testing of the voltages, etc.... I knew that wasn't the problem... but she was starting without a problem.... untill this morning.

Knowing that the electrical was good, I did the good ole "tap" on her, and she cranked right up.

Huck was right on the money with this one.. and it looks as if I need to get her rebuilt.

Thank god there is a good Alternator/Starter rebuild shop in town that has been operating for years that I can trust.

Now... where to find the Starter Remove how-to... im sure we have one

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by nsm484

Well... after all the testing of the voltages, etc.... I knew that wasn't the problem... but she was starting without a problem.... untill this morning.

Knowing that the electrical was good, I did the good ole "tap" on her, and she cranked right up.

Huck was right on the money with this one.. and it looks as if I need to get her rebuilt.

Thank god there is a good Alternator/Starter rebuild shop in town that has been operating for years that I can trust.

Now... where to find the Starter Remove how-to... im sure we have one

I would not jump to overhauling the starter yet.

What Huck says will shake the brushes, to help them make contact if they are worn, but it will also shack the solenoid armature loose so that the reduced amperage that is getting to it, will work it.
When the brushes are worn too short for the springs to hold them up, the starter will make a growling noise as the brushes arc on the commutator.
The sure way to tell which, is to short the starter spade terminal to the main starter terminal, if it starts, it's the wiring and a relay will fix it. If it does not start, it is the starter motor.

PS. Make sure that the car is in park.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by longassname

That threw me for a loop on my car too when I had your problem back in the day. The keyswitch disconnects the accessory circuit in the crank position.


There are several contact points in the ignition circuit. It seems like more than one of them go bad so there has in the past been some contention and hostillity on the subject when people have insisted it's this or that and other people insisted it was that instead of this because that's what failed on their car.

The spade connector on the starter solenoid can get crappy, the starter can get crappy, the ignition switch can get crappy, the inhibitor switch can get crappy. I don't know if anyone has checked the starter interupt relay adaptor but it would be another potential failure point on US models.

The relay mod seems to work no matter where your failure is. It doesn't have to be a bosch relay. Most auto parts stores carry a generic version of the bosch relay and even number the terminals the same.

I modified the illustration someone else here made to be a little bit clearer (at least in my mind):

N.B.

"I don't know if anyone has checked the starter interupt relay adaptor but it would be another potential failure point on US models."

Or the relay when fitted.

The above wiring diagram should be substituted for others published to date, particularly as the solenoid and starter is correctly illustrated.`

[kwren]

We still have to factor in the possibility that since the "starting-not starting" is erratic, the "whack-start right up" can be meaningless

Keith

[kwren]

Time will tell...

Keith

[longassname]

Look what I found. I had never seen this schematic before because it's in the cruise control section not the starter section of the factory service manual. If you are viewing this soon after I post you may have problems getting the pdf. I'm having packet loss problems and my isp is not being johny on the spot with fixing it.

http://www.ecutune.com/posts/starterCircuit.pdf

[kwren]

Originally Posted by kwren

We still have to factor in the possibility that since the "starting-not starting" is erratic, the "whack-start right up" can be meaningless

Keith

I think the r62 diode is splitting the voltage causing a reduction by about 4 or 5 volts. This does not allow enough volts to actuate the starter solanid , but the bosch relay can be activated by less that 12 volts!

Are we lucky or what!!! If that wasn't the case, we many of us would be in trouble!

All this testing and speculative thinking is nice but the Bosch relay install takes a few minutes and we get back on the road again... anytime we want to go!

"Time will tell"

Keith

[nsm484]

Just wanted to update, the starter finaly completely died, and as a requirement to have a working car for work the next day, I just got a new starter and droped it in.

However, I do plan on going ahead and doing the Bosch Relay, as it is easy, and I mite as well go ahead and get it done now before I have problems with that

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by kwren

I think the r62 diode is splitting the voltage causing a reduction by about 4 or 5 volts. This does not allow enough volts to actuate the starter solanid , but the bosch relay can be activated by less that 12 volts!

Are we lucky or what!!! If that wasn't the case, we many of us would be in trouble!

All this testing and speculative thinking is nice but the Bosch relay install takes a few minutes and we get back on the road again... anytime we want to go!

"Time will tell"

Keith

I have previously gone over the wiring diagram shown with the cruise control data and found that the start signal from the ignition switch connects at at the input side of the adapter. This means that the diode can not affect the voltage delivered to the starter solenoid via the ignition switch.

One diode grounds the inhibitor relay via the starter solenoid and when the starter solenoid is energised, the relay will in effect be presented with a short circuit. This is apparently part of the interlocking arrangements. It is not possible to ascertain how the overall interlocking system works without access to the CCU internal circuits. The system will be a belt and braces affair.

The second diode simply provides the relay with inductive spike suppression.

[kwren]

Cheers Trevor!
Then why are so many of us ending up getting the "click thing" and the voltage drops too low to actuate the starter??

Are you able to test it personally because your car does the same way?

Take care,
Keith

[BoxerFanatic]

Good thread to read.

My car randomly decides not to engage the starter. It even happened to Roo on the way from Cali, and has happened to me once or twice since.

A few taps on the starter with a maglite, and it seemed to re-engage.

Sounds like a Bosch relay mod, and possibly a new starter is in this car's future.

Possibly some new main charging system and supply wiring, and possibly grounding as well...

The lights go dim when starting, the turn signals dim the dash lights, and I can hear the turn signal affect the HVAC blower fan speed. But the alternator is new, and the battery seems good.

Plus, the headlights are quite dim and yellow, and the keyless remote just makes the car make some 4-pulse thumping sound... but maybe that is normal.

[kwren]

I am sure you have clean battery cable connectors, right?

Keith

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by kwren

Cheers Trevor!
Then why are so many of us ending up getting the "click thing" and the voltage drops too low to actuate the starter??

Are you able to test it personally because your car does the same way?

Take care,
Keith

Kia ora Keith.

Because the adaptor; starter interrupt relay when fitted; inhibitor switch; ignition switch; or any of several connections; are in this event faulty; and are presenting resistance. This arrangement also exactly explains the cruise control problem sometimes encountered.

No I am unable to personally test for this fault.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by kwren

I am sure you have clean battery cable connectors, right?

Keith

If you are asking me, yes, actually it does... the ground wire is not tinned up, or anything, and clamped down on the strands of the negative battery cable, but the terminals are remarkably clean, and not corroded at all.